Topic: Hi! (Read 7650 times)

Melancholy Spork · « **on:** November 24, 2008, 10:38:37 PM »

Hello Mark,

I'm just a teenage game audio enthusiast looking for some insider's advice on breaking into the industry... I stumbled upon your website while doing some research and I saw you had a forum, so I thought I'd join it to get in touch with you. Would you mind if I asked you a couple questions about the industry? I'm considering delving into sound design (mostly music), but I don't know what the best course of action would be or what the real topography of the business is.

Thanks for your time,

Garrett

Mark Knight · « **Reply #1 on:** November 25, 2008, 12:07:28 AM »

Quote from: Melancholy Spork on November 24, 2008, 10:38:37 PM

Would you mind if I asked you a couple questions about the industry? I'm considering delving into sound design (mostly music), but I don't know what the best course of action would be or what the real topography of the business is.

Hi Garrett,

Of course, ask away. My first piece of advice, although harsh, is that it's extremely difficult to break into the games industry as a composer these days. Since the advent of decent home studios, it's opened up the industry to a lot more people who have the ability to create 'studio quality' music, and more recently with the budgets of games rivaling that of films 10 years ago, film composers now see the games industry as an area to diversify in to.

There will always be more openings for sound designers than there will be for composers - hint hint!

Cheers for now,

m

Melancholy Spork · « **Reply #2 on:** November 25, 2008, 03:42:54 AM »

Quote from: Mark Knight on November 25, 2008, 12:07:28 AM

Quote from: Melancholy Spork on November 24, 2008, 10:38:37 PM
Would you mind if I asked you a couple questions about the industry? I'm considering delving into sound design (mostly music), but I don't know what the best course of action would be or what the real topography of the business is.

Hi Garrett,

Of course, ask away. My first piece of advice, although harsh, is that it's extremely difficult to break into the games industry as a composer these days. Since the advent of decent home studios, it's opened up the industry to a lot more people who have the ability to create 'studio quality' music, and more recently with the budgets of games rivaling that of films 10 years ago, film composers now see the games industry as an area to diversify in to.

There will always be more openings for sound designers than there will be for composers - hint hint!

Cheers for now,

m

Thanks! I appreciate it. I've heard a lot of people say that being a videogame composer is difficult these days... IGDA.org said that being versatile is key.

There are a couple of things I'm not clear on... one, I always kind of assumed "sound design" entailed making music and sound effects, but the more I read about it the more it seems like it's purely focused on sound design and other more technical aspects of game audio. Do sound designers usually just take care of sound effects or are they just as frequently in charge of music?

Another thing that I'm curious about- right now I'm using FL Studio to throw together some songs, but I'd like to get my hands on some more professional equipment. What kind of tools do you use for music composition and general sound design?

I know I'm bogging you down with questions, but just one more thing: Columbia offers a degree in Game Design with a concentration in Sound Design. Do dev teams like to see focused degrees, and if not, what do they look for?

Thanks again- I know it can get annoying to be peppered with questions. It's just been so hard to look all of this up- websites never seem to give you a straight answer!

Yours,

Garrett

Mark Knight · « **Reply #3 on:** November 25, 2008, 09:30:50 PM »

Well, versatility was the key, but not quite so much now I think. Companies tend to go for the best composers at their individual style. You can't be the best at every style. Still, and understanding of various styles even when you find what your style is, is useful providing you can adapt. It's worth testing yourself. Try and write a piece in the style of... Hans Zimmer, for example, then John Williams, etc. etc. it's still worth trying to keep a piece of 'you' in whatever you do though.

Again, it used to be the case when composers were also sound designers - it was normally that way around. But the amount of work required these days is vast so you tend to have both composer(s) and sound designer(s) working on a project. I've got a team of 4 doing sound design for the project I'm working on at the moment.

You'll often find that a Lead Audio Designer/Audio Director, or in my case the production/design team take care of the music - it all depends on the style, whether it's bespoke or licensed, etc. etc.

As for equipment... Music wise (at home), Steinberg Cubase SX3 (I've not upgraded to version 4 yet) and lots of soft synths from companies like East West Quantum Leap. For sound design (at work), I have a load of different mics, a Fostex portable field recorder, Sony Sound Forge and Vegas, Adobe Audition and Steinberg Nuendo... and a massive 3rd party sound effect library for whenever we can't create our own sounds.

If I were after a course in Sound Design, I'd be looking at places like the National Film School in the UK who have courses which deal specifically in sound to picture etc. I don't see how a 3 month module as part of a Game Design course is going to help turn you into a sound designer.

No worries and keep posting, first person who joined the forum

Thought it was probably more interesting than keep replying to emails.

Cheers for now,

m

Melancholy Spork · « **Reply #4 on:** November 25, 2008, 09:55:33 PM »

Hmm... so generally speaking, game developers tend to hire musicians for their music who match their particular style? I guess you couldn't really depend on videogame devs to hire you all the time, then... would it be better to just become a general composer for things like games and film, only picking up contracts with game developers as they come? Where else could I conceivably look for work?

Oh, and I remember hearing that in order to stand out from everyone else as a composer for games, it's really helpful to have some training in the games industry. That's why I was considering something more along the lines of sound design, with a specialty in music, but now I'm seeing that sound designers don't really handle music that much, which is my primary interest.

Thanks again,

Garrett

Mark Knight · « **Reply #5 on:** November 25, 2008, 10:12:00 PM »

Yeah - it's generally done through contacts, people you've worked with in the past, and quality of showreel. Back in 1992 when I started in the industry, my 'showreel' was a Commodore Amiga floppy disk with a load of track .mod's I'd written for demos. Funnily enough, my first job was converting an orchestral PC score to the 4 channel computer. There was no orchestral music on my showreel, but it did show, I guess, a proficiency in tracking.

It's definately worth doing a showreel and sending it out to as many companies as possible - but you shouldn't hold your breath. When Electronic Arts made me redundant in 2006, I sent out a CD showreel of music and one year later I'd not got one bit of interest from it. I did get some work from people I'd worked for in the past, who recommended me. The showreel is still a good idea to set yourself some targets, both in style, and completing within a time limit. Both of which you'll need to be able to do. There's a track on the gamesounds site, which was a pitch for a game. The only brief I got was it needed to be Bourne Identity with a hint of Chinese... Bourne's Theme is the name of the track, and that was done in 2 days, start to finish.... It did, however, take a bit longer before the idea for the track came out of my fingers.

Understanding of the games industry, and how it works is always going to be of benefit. I just think it's more important to be a good sound designer first. The games industry stuff can always be taught when you get the job, providing the company you work for see your sound design experience more beneficial than your lack of game knowledge a fault. My team is split between a couple of senior designers, one experienced, and one who'se fresh into the industry - so as time goes on he will pick up the 'tricks of the trade'.

You can still find work as a composer and sound designer, in the hand-help, mobile phone, and on-line games businesses but it would be quite rare nowerdays to expect one person to deal with sound design, music and speech for a next gen title.

Of course, everything I say, is just one person's point of view. You'll probably find someone else who will say exactly the opposite

m

Melancholy Spork · « **Reply #6 on:** November 26, 2008, 04:41:35 AM »

I guess networking is always a good idea, then, if recommendations are so important. And yeah, good point about the game industry bit- I never thought of that.

Well, if it's much easier to be a sound designer than a composer in the games industry, what do you do if you really like to compose for games? Use sound design as a passage into composition, or just find a way to really stand out as a composer?

This has been very informative- thanks for the billionth time.

Mark Knight · « **Reply #7 on:** November 26, 2008, 12:45:54 PM »

I wouldn't say it's easier to be a sound designer, but it's certainly easier to find sound designer jobs - especially if you want the job security of a monthly pay cheque

Since most companies hire composers on a project per project basis there's not likely to be a change to move from a sound design position to a composition position.

I also think that now, since the quality of sound in film, tv and games have merged quite a bit, you shouldn't limit yourself to just games.

To start with, join the Indiegamer Developer Site - http://forums.indiegamer.com/ There will be people there wanting music for their independant games. It's likely to be non-payable, but at least gives you experience working in this industry, and perhaps you'll get some good additions to your showreel. Likewise, there are indepentant film makers who will need music for their production. Pay will be low, or nothing, but it's experience.

tt4n,

m

Melancholy Spork · « **Reply #8 on:** November 27, 2008, 05:41:58 PM »

That's great- I'll try to get some connections on that site. Thanks a lot!

I guess now I'll have to work on being a better composer if I want to find work there.

As a composer for film, videogames, and TV, what kind of things could I do to make myself stand out? What kind of degrees and training should I go for?

Also, would you like to hear some of my music?

Mark Knight · « **Reply #9 on:** November 27, 2008, 11:24:46 PM »

How to stand out... hmm... if I knew the answer to that, I'd still be writting game music myself now! Everything has to be of the highest quality now. From the composition (and the hook - the hook is most important, something to catch the listener's ear - I'm a big fan of melodies!), to the recording and the quality of the sounds used. For example, a lot more orchestras are used for final recordings, but to get the work in the first place you need to use a decent orchestral library to get the idea across. A lot of non-musicians will be listening to your pitch and won't related to "I'm using General MIDI sounds now, but it'll sound a lot better with an orchestra" - you have to make it sound as good as you possibly can.

You know, apart from the fact I've played the violin since I was 6, or 7, and did music at school and college, I have no professional training or qualifications in music composition - I went straight into games when I was 19. I'm not sure composition can 100% be taught. Sure, you can learn a lot, but I think you have to have that creative flair built in.

Great minds and all that - was going to suggest you post some mp3s

Melancholy Spork · « **Reply #10 on:** November 29, 2008, 11:33:40 PM »

Excellent point! I guess you just have to be creative. I have the slight disadvantage of going into music late- I'm learning music now, from my father. Until early this year I was mostly focused on art and game design- this new interest in sound is actually kind of sudden!

I would tend to agree with you, and it seems like people with any interest in doing music composition professionally have that flair.

I don't have a website (yet) to download MP3s from directly, but I do have everything uploaded to NewGrounds, where you can just listen and/or download. Not very professional, but I need to find a graphic designer to help with my site, and until then I've gotta stick with this.

Personally, I think this is my best work to date:
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/188353

Also, this one's pretty good:
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/189516

Keep in mind I started doing this over the summer! I'm using a purchased version of FL Studio at the moment. I need some better equipment, I know- gotta save up for that.

Mark Knight · « **Reply #11 on:** November 30, 2008, 01:04:36 AM »

Hey ho - getting into music late, is better than getting into music never!

Listened to the Twiligh remix. I don't know the original track so it's difficult to judge on what it's based on. It seems like a nice piece of music. In my opinion, the mix is ruined by the looooong decays of the instruments you're using... or perhaps it's too much reverb/delay ?

I can hear the instruments much more staccato (percussive) with a nice analogue bass rhythm going to give the track more movement.

The one point I would make is about the whole dance music style. There are less and less games which need this sort of style of music I think (I don't play lots of games, mainly driving ones these days) - how about trying to fuse the dance beats and bass with more orchestral instruments, that may be an idea to try out.

Another idea to see if games is the right area for you is to take a couple of minutes of footage from one of your favourite films, and create your own score to what you see going on, on screen. That's always a good test.

tt4n mate,

m

Melancholy Spork · « **Reply #12 on:** November 30, 2008, 05:41:03 PM »

I use a lot of Nexus in both of those songs, which tends to have long delays. I could try taking out a few of the synths...

You're right, dance music isn't really used in games, but I just enjoy it, so I thought I'd make some. XD

That's a great idea! I'll do that after I finish what I'm working on now.

Out of curiosity, do you happen to know where to find a good "choir" instrument/VST/sound? Everything that I've found sounds fake and synth-y.

Also, what kind if equipment does a composer use for professional projects? I'm sure he doesn't use FL Studio... I kind of asked you this before, but I wanted to know if there's a specific program I can purchase that's worth learning.

Mark Knight · « **Reply #13 on:** December 01, 2008, 12:25:55 AM »

Is that Nexus 1 or Nexus 2? I'm thinking about treating myself to that. Apparently it should have a 20% discount over Xmas. You can edit the sounds though yes? reduce the release of the amp envelope...

There are a few good choirs.. Depends what you want to do. For the Cyberspeed remix I'm doing I'm using a patch from an Akai CD called "Classical Choirs" by a developer called Ilio. I also have the EWQL Classical Choir library, the one where you can make them sing words, but I've not really used that much yet.

Composers will tend to use Either Logic, Cubase, or Digital Performer.. A few may use Reason... that's for the sequencing.. Then it's a case of spending shed-loads of money on either hardware synths, or more recently vsti soft synths. Native Instruments Komplete would be a good start and covers quite a variety of different sounding instruments and samplers.

Melancholy Spork · « **Reply #14 on:** December 02, 2008, 03:53:44 AM »

I believe it's Nexus 1, but honestly I'm not sure. I could really use a couple of those expansion packs myself. And yeah, you can edit the sounds- a feature I didn't find terribly useful for the most part, but it's certainly there.

Ilio? I've never heard of them before... I'll dig it up and see what I can nab.

I've heard Logic commended a lot. I'll have a look and see if it's expensive... is it hard to learn? I know FL Studio took me a little while to figure out. I bet there are tutorials someplace...

Happy Holidays.

Mark Knight · « **Reply #15 on:** December 02, 2008, 12:48:04 PM »

For me, Logic is hard to learn but simply because I've been using Cubase since it was called Cubit on the Atari ST - old and past it, can't get out of my ways... if you know what I mean

Holiday time soon... you too..... yay!!!!

Melancholy Spork · « **Reply #16 on:** December 03, 2008, 04:49:16 AM »

I've never heard of cubase either. Fish it all, there must be tutorials someplace...

cheers

Mark Knight · « **Reply #17 on:** December 04, 2008, 01:18:37 AM »

Yeah, I've seen some Cubase tutorial dvd's out there.

Melancholy Spork · « **Reply #18 on:** December 08, 2008, 12:07:28 AM »

Sorry I've been gone; I've had Christmas related things to do.

I'm working on a new song and I think it's coming really well! Want a listen when it's finished?

Mark Knight · « **Reply #19 on:** December 08, 2008, 01:50:59 AM »

Don't worry. Someone decided to crash into me at 50mph whilst I wasn't moving, on friday, so have ben pre-occupied with that.

For sure - send it on.

m

Melancholy Spork · « **Reply #20 on:** December 09, 2008, 03:34:18 PM »

Now that's a problem! Is everyone ok?

Here it is: I spent some time on this one. Let me know what you think.

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/192950

Mark Knight · « **Reply #21 on:** December 09, 2008, 10:45:27 PM »

Quote from: Melancholy Spork on December 09, 2008, 03:34:18 PM

Now that's a problem! Is everyone ok?

Here it is: I spent some time on this one. Let me know what you think.

http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/192950

Yeah, was only me in the car thankfully. Knackered my back

That's a big improvement there. At the moment, it sounds very sequenced - you've quantised everything strongly so there's no human feel to it. I'd also play around with the velocities you use, again alot of the instruments seem to be playing at the same velocity and don't sound human.

As for the mix. It's too heavily compressed I think, and there's something nasty going on in the bass - plus distortion on the brass sound at the beginning

Interesting track though - would work in a scarey 1st person shooter!

Melancholy Spork · « **Reply #22 on:** December 10, 2008, 03:53:40 PM »

Will the other guy's insurance cover it?

I'm not really sure how to make things sound human... when you say play around with the velocities, do you mean just turn some instruments down? (they're all at a very high velocity to give them punch)

Hmm, there's a compression problem? I don't know much about that stuff. The bass issue is probably the result of cramming so many drums into the same song, but I thought for the most part it sounded okay.

I'm not good at the technical stuff. I ought to read up on things like that.

Mark Knight · « **Reply #23 on:** December 12, 2008, 11:56:21 AM »

Yeah - it should cover it. The credit crunch has made 2nd hand car values plumet.. I mean, mine was a near 200bhp V6 hatchback, and it's worth £2000

If you are quantising everything then all instruments will be completely in time. Human's can't play completely in time! In Cubase, I have a setting on each track which plays every note randomly before or after when they are supposed to play. It's very subtle, but it works - I do the same with velocity. + or - 10 with the velocity so if the velocity is 100, it could play at between 90 and 110.

When you're cramming so much into a song, you need to use EQ to give instruments their own space.

Ozone is a great piece of mastering software, and even if you don't have their software, they have an excellent guide to mastering pdf

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/OzoneMasteringGuide.PDF

Melancholy Spork · « **Reply #24 on:** December 15, 2008, 06:10:58 PM »

Dang, that's terrible.

Sorry to hear that.

You're right- thanks. I tried messing with velocities and I noticed that it really does sound more human. Thanks for that tutorial too!

I really appreciate all this help. I going to try to make a kind of epic, title-theme-ish track now- it's my favorite kind of music.

News:

Who's Online

Search

Recent Posts

Author Topic: Hi! (Read 7650 times)